Joker Won’t Be Gotham’s Clown Prince Of Crime In Folie À Deux: ‘Arthur’s Not A Criminal Mastermind’

There have been all kinds of iterations of the Joker over the years. Some veered more towards the exaggerated mobster route, like Jack Nicholson in Tim Burton’s Batman; there was Heath Ledger’s nihilistic terrorist in The Dark Knight; Jared Leto’s eccentric tattooed gang leader in Suicide Squad. But in Joker, Joaquin Phoenix gave us a totally different conception of who Batman’s arch-nemesis might be – a lonely, disenfranchised failed comedian whose inner turmoil spills over into violent acts that bring out the darkness festering in Gotham City. In Todd Phillips’ film, Arthur Fleck wasn’t a villain, let alone a maniacal schemer – more a mercurial, unpredictable force moving through the world in his own unique way.

And so, in Joker: Folie À Deux – the much-anticipated sort-of-sequel that sends Fleck to Arkham, where he’ll strike up a music-fuelled relationship with Lady Gaga’s Harley ‘Lee’ Quinzel – we’ll be venturing further into Arthur Fleck’s psyche. But, in keeping with the previous film, it won’t see the Joker become Gotham’s Clown Prince Of Crime. “We would never do that,” Phillips explains to Empire in the world-exclusive Joker: Folie À Deux cover feature. “Because Arthur clearly is not a criminal mastermind. He was never that.” While Fleck isn’t angling to become a criminal figurehead in Arkham, the world is watching him. “Arthur has become this symbol to people,” Phillips says. “This unwilling, unwitting symbol now paying for the crimes of the first film, but at the same time finding the only thing he ever wanted, which was love. That’s always what he’s been about, even though he’s been pushed and pulled in all these directions. So we tried to just make the most pure version of that.”

That purity of character exploration dovetails with Folie À Deux’s most unexpected stylistic swing – that Fleck (and Gaga’s Lee) will break into song. It comes from the notion in the first film that, in Phillips’ words, Fleck “has music in him”. Cue Phoenix singing showtunes, as channelled through Arthur. “It was important to protect that with poor phrasing and occasional bum notes,” the actor tells Empire. “Arthur grew up hearing his mother play these songs on the radio. He’s not a singer, and he shouldn’t sound like a professional singer. He should sound like somebody that’s taking a shower and just bursts out into song.”

He was, however, performing opposite the professional singer, Lady Gaga. “I do seem to remember her spitting up coffee the first time I sang, so that felt good, that was exciting, and made me feel confident,” he jokes. Together, they found a creative harmony. “Gaga was always very encouraging of just, ‘Go with what you feel, it’s fine’,” says Phoenix. “For somebody who’s not a performer in that way, it can be... uncomfortable to do that, but also very exciting.” Prepare for one hell of a cinematic duet.

Read Empire’s world-exclusive cover feature on Joker: Folie À Deux – speaking to Joaquin Phoenix, Lady Gaga, Todd Phillips and more about the making of their rule-breaking sequel – in the September 2024 issue, on sale Thursday 1 August. Pre-order a copy online here. Joker: Folie À Deux comes to UK cinemas on 4 October.